Divesting from White Supremacy Culture (Pt1). Beyoncé, hustle culture, and eclipse watching. (Ep.24)
In Episode 24, we begin talking about the 15 characteristics of white supremacy culture, as written by Dr. Tema Okun - how it shows up in our lives, in our workplaces, in our systems - even country music and eclipse viewing! In this sneak peek, we shake our heads about a headline, bemoaning the lost productivity during the eclipse (!!!) instead of framing it as a collective moment of awe and wonder. Don’t let white supremacy culture keep you from being fully human.
Show notes and sneak peek
Episode 24 begins with misheard lyrics from a Jay Z and Alicia Keys song (thanks Popcast podcast). It makes no sense and isn’t appropriate for all audiences but you can’t unhear it. Kori asks if Laura’s heard Beyonce’s new Cowboy Carter album and phew! Has she ever! The backlash against Beyonce was the PERFECT segue into our topic for this pod - and next pod as we talked for a long time. Drum roll please! White. Supremacy. Culture. Kori grounds us in understanding culture in general, and then Laura shares the 15 characteristics of white supremacy culture from a seminal article by Dr. Tema Okun. They are: perfectionism, a sense of urgency, defensiveness, valuing quantity over quality, worship of the written word, only one right way, paternalism, either/or thinking, power hoarding, fear of open conflict, individualism, I'm the only one, progress is bigger and more, illusion of objectivity, and the right to comfort. Phew! Next, we trace evidence of white supremacy through country music, language in job descriptions, headlines about the impact of the eclipse on lost wages (WTH!), how one of our kiddos pretend works to avoid his sibling, and the unreasonable expectation of strong performance on evaluations. Kori, in a recent speaking engagement, was asked by a listener how to push back against perfectionism in herself and begin to unlearn it. We also address discomfort as not being the same as being in danger - and that’s where we leave off this time - thanking listeners for embracing elements of the pod that might have made them uncomfortable or defensive - and hopefully pushing past politeness to interrogate why so we can all root out white supremacy culture - in our society, but first in our own thinking.
Visit our new home on the web: www.pushingpastpolitepodcast.com for full show notes, transcripts, links to resources, and discussion prompts. Follow us on social media, as we want to hear from YOU! @pushingpastpolite on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube.
Resources
Dr. Tema Okun’s work on white supremacy culture
and a discussion guide:
Transcript
Episode 24 Full Episode
[00:00:00] Laura: Um, I listened to an episode of a podcast called the Popcast, all about pop culture. And they did a whole episode on misheard lyrics. Some of them were so funny. Jay Z and Alicia Keys, Empire State of Mind, Concrete Jungle. Where dreams are made of, there's nothing you can't do, right? That's the real lyric.
[00:00:18] Concrete jungle, where dreams are made of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody wrote in and thought it was wet dream tomato. Concrete jungle, wet dreams tomato. How does that even make sense? It does not make sense, but when your brain thinks you hear that, you go back and listen to it with those words. It's amazing.
[00:00:40] Kori: Wet dream tomato. Wet
[00:00:50] Laura: dream tomato. And with that, welcome. To Pushing Past Polite, where we talk about what matters and make the world more just. And sometimes get sidetracked with pop culture and other silliness on our minds. We're so glad you're with us today. I'm Kori. I'm Laura. Thanks for coming. So, we were supposed to release an episode last week, April Fool's.
[00:01:13] That was not in the plans, friends, with life. And that's one of the beauties of working with someone else who's a mama. It's a workin mama, you just get it and you flex. So our apologies, um, thank you for your patience. We're back.
[00:01:29] Kori: So did you, have you, are you into, have you heard Beyonce's new album?
[00:01:34] Laura: Oh, yes to absolutely every question.
[00:01:40] from my heart. It is so beautiful. It is so layered and brilliant. And I am sure I'm just scratching the surface of what I know. Um, but I'm all about digging into it and learning more too.
[00:01:54] Kori: Yeah. I was thinking about how Her releasing a country album actually leads really well into our discussion that we wanted to have today.
[00:02:04] Because of so much of the pushback and so much of the narrative and so much of the commentary around her
[00:02:11] Laura: release of this album. The hurt white ceilings blow my freaking mind.
[00:02:20] Kori: The anger, not even just hurt, like the anger.
[00:02:24] Laura: Yes. Yes. Get her off of here. Yeah. Get her out of here. She's not a country artist.
[00:02:28] She doesn't belong. I'm sorry, what?
[00:02:30] Kori: Yeah. I'm sorry, what? Yeah. It's gross. But Keith Urban from Australia belongs.
[00:02:36] Laura: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:02:37] Kori: Cause guess why?
[00:02:38] Laura: A little blonder. Just a little blonder. Somehow he's
[00:02:42] Kori: acceptable as
[00:02:43] Laura: a country music artist. But not someone who's grown
[00:02:47] Kori: up. Born in Texas. In the American South.
[00:02:54] Somehow,
[00:02:55] Laura: she doesn't qualify. You're in, you're out. Guess where the lines are drawn. Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah, so, not only have I been listening to you, I've been playing it for the kids. We've been talking about it. Um, but also my mama's group where we get together pretty regularly about topics of anti racism.
[00:03:11] This is going to be our next get together. We're going to focus on this. We're going to dig into the album and unpack it a bit,
[00:03:17] Kori: which I'm so excited about. Nice. I, if you want to, I can send you like some people's perspectives around it and like, cause you know, things like Blackbird was written by McCartney.
[00:03:28] Yes. Yes. Um, Little Rock Nine. Yes. And, um, particularly about the girls, right? And so that, she redid it, and she With a black chorus of women. Who are country Country stars. Music artists. Are, yeah. Black country music artists. And so, um, it's like, I think we talked about this one time, I told you I watched some interview with Zendaya, which is funny because this kind of comes back around to, to Beyonce.
[00:04:01] Because she was being interviewed by Beyonce's mom. Mom. And Zendaya was saying how she, like, wants to open the door and hold it open. And I feel like this is a really great example of that, right? It's like, she didn't just create a country music album. She invited all of these other countries, artists, Black country artists, and other country artists, not just Black, but to be on
[00:04:26] Laura: the album with her.
[00:04:28] To lift them up and to start their careers too. Well, start their careers isn't right because they've been denied access, right? Yeah, but just to
[00:04:35] Kori: elevate them and it totally has, it's like changed so many of their lives. And then she pulled in, you know, our good old faithfuls, right? Like Willie Nelson and Dolly, Dolly Parton, by the way, amazing.
[00:04:49] Laura: What a, what a girl, what a, what a solid human. Yeah. Uh, again, growing up in a culture that. Maybe did not, uh, value equity and justice and racism and all, you know, anti racism and all of this. And she gets it. She just gets it. And she has. Like she has. For a while, yes.
[00:05:09] Kori: For a really long time.
[00:05:11] Laura: Yes.
[00:05:12] Kori: For a really
[00:05:13] Laura: long time.
[00:05:14] Yeah, I, um, I, God bless Dolly, that we need to keep. She's a national treasure for sure. Um, but even like having the endorsement, again, not that Beyonce should have ever needed that, but having the praise and the, and the, uh, credibility, quote, unquote, of these, very well recognized country stars. I would say the affirmation.
[00:05:36] Kori: That's right.
[00:05:37] Laura: That's right. Being
[00:05:38] Kori: affirmed by them. Like Willie Nelson is on her album. Dolly Parton. These are legends. We will co sign. Of country music. Mm hmm. And we are co signing. We are affirming that this is her space too. You're right to be here. This is our space. This is her space too.
[00:05:55] Laura: Yes. Yes. And still people are so.
[00:05:59] Angry about it. Ooh. Okay. So what do we want to talk about? You're ready? White supremacy culture. White
[00:06:08] Kori: supremacy culture. So I got to tell you this term. All the ways it shows up in our society. And so that's like, how can people not be racist? Because it shows up so prominently and some ways it's super blatant.
[00:06:22] In some ways it's very subtle, but it's everywhere. Okay.
[00:06:27] Laura: Yes, this three word term, white supremacy culture, I knew, you know, years ago, I knew what white supremacists are, and that's creepy and like fringe, right? Not anymore. Um, I know, certainly know what culture is, but you put three, these three words together, white supremacy culture, I remember the first time, probably you, said it to me in conversation, and I remember thinking, I need to do some learning about this.
[00:06:48] And you started pointing this out, and I'm like, well, that's not, that's just, that could be a personality thing. And then I realized, oh, right, because I've been inculcated, this is the air I breathe. This is what I think is expected. And therefore it has become a part of me. Um, so let's just say that this is not, let's give credit and, uh, recognize this came, this originally came, this term and these 10, 10, is that the right number characteristics?
[00:07:19] I'm going to go count. Um, originally were explored in a paper by Dr. Tema Okun, spelled 15, thank you, not 10. Uh, T E M A O K U N. So if you want to Google her name and white supremacy culture, you will find her original article as well as lots of other resources on this. Um, But she elevated and called out, uh, after seeing these things at work in her work in the DEI space, um, these 15 characteristics of white supremacy culture.
[00:07:55] And we will post a graphic with all of them on it so you can have this and look about it, look at it and think a little bit more deeply about how this shows up in your life and your experiences in what you see. Um, but we want to talk about them a little bit.
[00:08:10] Kori: Well, first, let's just talk about what culture is and white supremacy culture is, like, let's define a little.
[00:08:16] Um, so I was very fortunate to give a talk recently at a women's summit. And one of the things that we did talk about or, yeah, that we talked about was this idea, right? And so, you know, culture is something that we don't necessarily inherit. And I think that sometimes people think that it's passed on, but that's not really true, right?
[00:08:38] Like. It's this collection of ideas and beliefs and behaviors and standards that we're kind of socialized in. But one of the things that I think is one of the deepest tenets of culture that doesn't always get named is generation, right? So some cultural things you learn are passed down from older generations and from experiences within your families and within your communities.
[00:09:06] And, you know, those things are coupled with, immersed with, met with your generational experience. So like, um, being a first generation American versus being someone who, uh, is a first generation immigrant to the country, right? You're going to have some different cultural contexts and beliefs and experiences.
[00:09:30] Or being from a family who grew up in the South, right? All your family's from the South, but you're living in the North or you're living on the West Coast, right? Your cultural experiences are going to be different. And then, like, this age of the Internet. So, like, you know, Gen X versus Gen Z versus Millennial versus Boomer.
[00:09:50] It's like we all have different cultural experiences based on our generation as well. Married to these other, um, these other aspects, right? So that's a long thing I'm rambling. I'm here for it. Okay, so it's like, it's like these traditions and things are established over generations, but then are met across, you know, like your, your own generation.
[00:10:13] There's like that intersection. And then white supremacy culture. It's like this widespread ideology that's embedded in people's beliefs and their values and their norms and their practices and their behaviors and their standards or expectations and, and it's taught really overtly in some settings. And then, like, so overtly, like, Black lives don't matter, right?
[00:10:40] It's like all, Black lives matter being met with all lives matter is like, well, why do we need to say the all lives matter thing? We're not saying, by saying Black lives matter, we're not saying other lives don't matter. So why do we have this counter narrative that's so overtly, uh, bumpking up against it, right?
[00:10:58] As I, and then in other ways, it's like super covert. And it's just like the way that headlines are written in newspapers or some of the language that's used that's much more subtle when we talk about, um, you know, the crime problem or when we're using demographic information where we're talking about, uh, the urban settings need more policing because whatever x, y, z, right?
[00:11:28] It's like. That language, coded language, that's like the black folks need more supervision and that's why we need to bump up the police force because we need to maintain
[00:11:38] Laura: control, right? Well, and that's a good point how white supremacy culture is, yes, the norms, the customs. The beliefs, all of that, but it's also because of that, it's so deeply embedded into policies, into our institutions.
[00:11:51] Because it was overt, initially. Yes. It has its history in pretty, yeah, flat out racism, right? Flat out. Two tiered, two tiered society. Well, probably more than two, but essentially the, The have of power, the haves of power, and the ones that do not. Yeah. And therefore, that's how these systems and societies were built and created, and it's replicated.
[00:12:14] Yes. Generation after generation. Yes. And these, these, these elements become entrenched, and then they become internalized because it's the way things are.
[00:12:23] Kori: And
[00:12:23] Laura: it's,
[00:12:23] Kori: and it's
[00:12:24] Laura: the
[00:12:24] Kori: value of whiteness, right, that, that white people are superior to other people.
[00:12:32] Laura: And, and the white way of doing and being is superior.
[00:12:35] Kori: Yes. And something else I like to point out is it also changes, right? It's like it, it evolves and shifts based on the environment and situation. So, for example. When, um, the Irish people first came to the United States, they were deemed as less than. They were not part of, not particularly considered white, considered white.
[00:13:01] They were not part of that group of being white. And so they were doing things and that black people were doing and brown people were doing. It's like no Mexicans, no Irish, no black, no Negroes. Um, and so, but that has evolved over time, where now they are just part of. Um, the larger population of what white Caucasian community looks like.
[00:13:28] Probably, I think same
[00:13:29] Laura: with the Italian population. Same with the Italian population. Mm
[00:13:32] Kori: hmm. Even though there is like a level of real, of like ethnic pride that exists probably in the Italian, in those communities, Polish, Italian, Irish communities prominently, right? Because they were othered in this country at some point.
[00:13:50] And so, In being othered, you often develop a really strong sense of your ethnic pride, and you're, and you're As a
[00:13:59] Laura: substitute for, because you're not included, you need to come up with some other narrative and story about who you are. Who you are, and your community. That's right.
[00:14:08] Little Man: Mm hmm.
[00:14:09] Laura: So We've talked and we've established what culture is, and most people know, and then also to this idea of what is held up, the standard of whiteness, as, uh, being, as shifting over time, as being completely, um, socially defined, right?
[00:14:25] It's not, it's not about appearance all the time, right? About who was in and who was out and who was othered. But how does this idea of, White supremacy culture show up in ways that maybe you wouldn't think. Should we talk about what, should we list these principles and maybe dig into a couple? Sure. Yeah.
[00:14:42] Because for me, seeing them was surprising. Some of them were surprising.
[00:14:45] Kori: Naming them. Yeah. Mm hmm.
[00:14:49] Laura: So let's just do that. Um, perfectionism, a sense of urgency, defensiveness, valuing quantity over quality, worship of the written word, must be written down, policy, it doesn't say that, um, only one right way.
[00:15:08] Paternalism, either or thinking, very black and white, the dichotomy of that. Power hoarding, fear of open conflict. Individualism, I'm the only one, very rugged individualism, I'm the only one who can do this. Progress is bigger and more. Objectivity, or the illusion of objectivity. And the right to comfort. We should have led
[00:15:34] Kori: with, we should have led with that one.
[00:15:36] Which
[00:15:36] Laura: one? Right to
[00:15:36] Kori: comfort.
[00:15:38] Laura: So let's talk
[00:15:39] Kori: about that. That right to comfort. What's triggering, what power hoarding and right to comfort, I feel like is what triggers a lot of the other things.
[00:15:47] Laura: Right. Well, just in the, um, country music space alone, right? You see the power hoarding, you see who's allowed and who's not.
[00:15:57] Yeah. And it's, it's also, you know,
[00:15:59] Kori: Revealing some other things, just like who gets played. So there's like, Mm-Hmm. . 60% or 60 plus percent of the artists. The music that gets played on the radio is by male artists.
[00:16:11] Little Man: Mm-Hmm. .
[00:16:11] Kori: Right. And that in country music. Right. I was, Mm-Hmm. . I was reading this, doing, reading this, well, I wasn't reading, I was on Instagram.
[00:16:17] Right. It was like a game. Of course. It was like, I read this thing. Yeah. It was a meme or a, or an infographic. It was, it was infographic. It was like a report from NPR, I think that I saw on Instagram. That has higher
[00:16:30] Laura: level credibility than just, I read it on the internet, to be fair. Yeah. Yeah. You did. You did some research.
[00:16:35] I found
[00:16:35] Kori: it from a news, news types, a news source. Yes. Um, but just like the dynamics around male versus female. So let's also kind of talk about that piece of this ideology. was rooted in, like, patriarchy as well. Paternalism, yes. And paternalism, right. So it's like that, that's a, that is a significant tenet.
[00:17:00] So the, when we're thinking about the marginalization of people, away from this white supremacy culture, right? It's like the center is cis, white, hetero, male, hetero, Christian, Protestant males, right? Yes. I think I got all the identities. Able bodied. Able bodied. Yeah. And so then it's like your proximity to those things gives you access to different kinds of privilege or power, right?
[00:17:40] The proximity. And so that's why oftentimes white women have a lot of proximity to this power, um, hoarding that happens based on this. And that's where this idea of like Karens come from, right? It's like they are these. This protected group because of their proximity to white men, to white men.
[00:18:05] Laura: Mm hmm.
[00:18:06] Yeah. No one can hurt me, so I can make this crazy claim.
[00:18:09] Kori: But they're also perpetuators of the supremacy, right? Yes. They're like one of the main key perpetuators of the white supremacy culture.
[00:18:20] Laura: Yes.
[00:18:21] Kori: Yes.
[00:18:23] Laura: Okay. And looking at this list too, another thing that comes to mind for me, I recently served as a reference, a professional reference for someone who is.
[00:18:29] It's looking to get a job. And so to prepare myself to have that call, I looked at the job description, right? And I can't tell you how many times it, you know, the references to this idea of false sense of urgency, the sense of urgency, which is a white supremacy culture tenant as well, works well in a fast paced environment, you know, responds to deadlines, like all of these Really intense, stressful type words that remind me that so much of what we've accepted in the American workplace is this idea of sense of urgency.
[00:19:02] You know, we're under, but we're over budget and we're understaffed and we're overworked and that's acceptable or that's the norm.
[00:19:10] Kori: Which I sent you that, um, headline the other day that was like from after the eclipse. It's like, what, how many man hours of time were lost? Some kind of 700 million
[00:19:23] Laura: dollars or something in lost productivity from looking at the eclipse.
[00:19:27] Kori: It's like it was an hour. Of a really fascinating, beautiful, natural phenomenon. That natural phenomenon, exactly. And that's what a headline was. This, this focus on productivity. We lost all this time, which means That, like, people's need to engage with the environment, to be outside, to connect with nature, to connect with other people, to just stand in awe of a wonder.
[00:19:53] To have the brain space and capacity to even do that is something that is like a luxury because we're missing out on this productivity.
[00:19:59] Laura: Yeah. Get back, get back, get back, get back. Get back to work. Yeah. Mm hmm. As opposed to, the headline wasn't this many people took time out of work to, to stare and be in awe and admire and connect.
[00:20:12] Like one of the
[00:20:12] Kori: most watched events. In, you know, in 2024 has been this eclipse, you know, people from all over the world, the globe, we're watching this, people were traveling for it and having shared
[00:20:27] Laura: experience and being turned on to this idea of chasing these and following their bliss, like how wonderful.
[00:20:33] Kori: Yeah.
[00:20:34] Laura: And the headline is we have lost productivity and it cost, it cost this much money because I Sense of urgency, quantity over quality, right? There it is again. Mm hmm. Um, yeah. And progress is bigger and more. Yeah. There you go. That hits
[00:20:49] Kori: three.
[00:20:50] Little Man: Mm hmm.
[00:20:51] Laura: Hmm.
[00:20:52] Kori: And so that's in a headline. That's, and so that's something that people see all the time is like, and they're not having necessarily our reaction, right?
[00:21:01] They're like, Oh man, that's so much work time lost. Like I was. I feel bad for businesses. Right. Yeah. I was, the, uh, the boys were out. G was, uh, sick a little bit this week. He had a fever. And so we couldn't go back to school until his fever had been gone for 24 hours. So it presented on Sunday night. He had one Monday, Tuesday, it broke Tuesday night.
[00:21:32] I kept him home Wednesday. He went to school Thursday and Friday. And so on Wednesday. I, the nanny was out, and so I was with the boys all day, and it was a beautiful day weather wise, but it was a beautiful day with them. Oh, how wonderful. And all, I, I mean, I have, I took all this video and pictures, and they were just like, we were all just vibing, you know?
[00:22:01] Those days are magic. It was so amazing. At the end of the day, all I could think about was how grateful I was. I am a business owner and that I did not have to be checking email and feeling the stress of like turning things around and making sure that I was keeping up with the requests and demands of this other, of the, of work because somebody needed something and whatever, right?
[00:22:33] Like, I didn't have any of that stress. I had none of that sitting on me. What's that like? I was, I know. It's wonderful. It was wonderful. So I was able to be present with them. And I'm saying all that to say that that's one of the ways in which this culture seeps into our daily lives. And steals our joy.
[00:22:55] And steals our joy, right? Because we're prioritizing and made to think it's necessary to prioritize. Work, because we need to work to live, to maintain our lives, over relationship, right? And it's like the productivity over process, progress being like, I produce more, I did more, I made it bigger, fourth quarter goals, yes, all of this, all of this, as opposed to like, I was in it deeply in the moment.
[00:23:33] With your kids.
[00:23:34] Laura: The other thing is when you have this, when, when white supremacy culture is a part of your thinking in this way, you see your children. As an obstacle to your goals, as opposed to like, you're part of your life. Like a center of it. Yeah. You're annoying me because
[00:23:49] Kori: I can't get work done. Yeah.
[00:23:51] Which is one of the reasons I left my job. That's one of the reasons I left is I heard myself saying to them, I'm working. I can't, uh, please come back when I, I'm, I need 10 more minutes or I need 30 more minutes. I'm working. I'm working. And then I heard my older son saying to my younger son, go away. I'm working or I'm busy
[00:24:22] Laura: because he was imitating what he heard, right?
[00:24:25] So he's, he's pretend play. He's pretend working because this is what we're, we're modeling again, not to be harsh to you. I do the same thing, right? This is what exactly. But this is why I was like,
[00:24:36] Kori: no, you
[00:24:36] Laura: wanted to interrupt this as opposed to continue this thinking and sharing, passing this on.
[00:24:41] Kori: Yes, disrupt it.
[00:24:43] And so it's like, uh, mama, come on, let's go. It's like, okay, let me finish this one thing. Let me hit send on the e mail or whatever I'm doing. Give me three minutes and not 33 minutes or not three hours. Right. It's like, let me just finish this one task and then I'm with you, buddy.
[00:25:02] Laura: Yeah.
[00:25:03] Kori: And now it's, yes, let's go.
[00:25:05] Let's go.
[00:25:06] Laura: I love that.
[00:25:07] Kori: Let's go. And so even when my husband is still working at the end of the day, it's like once G's home and Jay is awake, if even if he's still working, it's like now, especially they love the spring, it's like we're outside, you know, and we're scooter riding, we're in the back playing with the sand.
[00:25:28] Um, you know, we're shooting the hose, whatever, we're on the slide in the back like we're outside. And that part of like being able to not feel like I have to be grinding every minute in order to maintain. Something. Yeah. Yeah. It's like extraordinarily liberating.
[00:25:54] Laura: Well, and the hustle culture is praised so much, right?
[00:25:58] Get up. Do more. Get early. Bigger. More. Yes. Progress equals bigger. More. Quantity over quality. Quantity over quantity. You're either working out or you're not. You're meeting your goals or you're not. This either or black and white type thing. Yeah. And there's urgency. And perfectionism. You're not there yet.
[00:26:17] Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. You've met your goals. High five. But you're not a strong performer. Like you're just a strong performer versus an exceptional. Yeah. Right? The, the, the bar is ridiculous.
[00:26:28] Kori: Yeah. So even in like the workplace, right? It's like, well, we don't give out anything above strong performance, but we also don't give acknowledgement to when you're going well above and beyond your strong performance, too.
[00:26:46] Yes, but it's like this, that the consistency of strong performance, but even those demonstrations of like. Wow, you've really been stretching for half the year, and if the right people don't see the stretch or don't think it qualifies as being a stretch, then you're still not getting the acknowledgement for stretching, even though you feel the stretch in your body and in your brain and in your, like you, you feel a stretch.
[00:27:14] So then it's like, and in your life, so, but, so then what are you getting in terms of a reinforcement? What is the incentive to stretch if it's always urgent? If it's always, well, you did this bigger thing, but we need bigger and bigger and bigger. If it's all like,
[00:27:36] Laura: that's burning up human capital is what that is.
[00:27:38] It's like you're pulling yourself apart. Yes. And how many of us feel that in the year of our Lord, 2024 with, yeah. Job demands with life demands with cultural demands on what a good mother looks like and has to do with all the activities your kids have to be in. Don't you feel that? I mean, you feel that pull and that stretch.
[00:27:58] Kori: And then that full fledged disarray across the world, right? There's also like that, like that looming thing that you're
[00:28:06] Laura: also just like
[00:28:06] Kori: World War III
[00:28:07] Laura: or the apocalypse? Yep, that could be.
[00:28:09] Kori: That part, you know, I almost forgot
[00:28:13] Laura: for a moment we live with that low level hum of destruction. What's that sound?
[00:28:20] What's that white noise? Oh, drones. Oh, those are drones and helicopters. Don't
[00:28:27] Kori: worry. Don't go back to work. Just go back to work. We don't want to lose productivity. Yeah, go back to work. Don't get curious who we're watching. Don't watch us, but we're watching you.
[00:28:39] Laura: Oof, oof, oof.
[00:28:41] Kori: Yeah. Anywho. Deep breath. Deep breath.
[00:28:45] But it's something that if you become more aware of it, you can start to interrupt it, right? I was, so like I said, I had the honor of giving this talk at this, at this thing, and we had an opportunity to have some discussion after. And one of the things that someone shared was that they were, that they struggled with this idea of perfectionism, right?
[00:29:04] And I feel like so many women in particular really embody that in ways that we may not even recognize it, right? But just the idea, you said earlier, Lauren, like, um, about motherhood and being a good mother. And I just like, according to who? Like, where does that come from? Where does that, where is
[00:29:29] Laura: that?
[00:29:29] Kori: Who's judging? Right. Who's judging? Like, what are you, what are you talking about? Everyone. Everyone and no one. That's right. That's right. Right? It's, and so it's that, that mindset of just like, I have it too. This narrative in my head of, of, I try to always, as much as I can, I'm a human, I, I don't do it all the time, but I really try to talk to my children.
[00:29:57] That's right. As if someone is observing me talk to my children. Mm. Mm hmm. But the thing that's really weird about that is like, why do I need the observation?
[00:30:08] Laura: Mm hmm. Yeah, why is that not just your default stance?
[00:30:12] Kori: Right? It's like, so I'm, I'm really just observing myself, but it's that idea of perfectionism.
[00:30:18] Like, there is someone who's has a standard that is assessing me all the time. And I'm like having that, that discussion in my head around that assessment.
[00:30:34] Laura: And maybe it is that for me, it's more of, um, knowing that if I'm not conscious about my parenting, I will replicate harm that I've experienced.
[00:30:43] Kori: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Laura: So perfectionism and more about being really conscious about undoing. And thinking differently and disrupting, like you're saying, it could be that too. Honestly, yeah. Hey, listen, like we said, low level destruction, it's all the things, it's all the things. Yeah. So can you say a little bit more about like how, so if someone is struggling with perfectionism, you mentioned this in debriefing your talk with me about how you can start to unlearn that in yourself.
[00:31:11] Kori: Yeah. So first you have to like, recognize that idea and name it and name it. Right. And, and so, and, and some people are more willing to do work around kind of unpacking where that, what the root of that is, like why, and it's often just lived experiences that, that you grew up in a space where people expected you to be quiet and perfect and calm and maintain composure, regardless of the situation.
[00:31:39] This is the experience of, of a lot of folks all the time, right? I was going to say, tell me you're an
[00:31:44] Laura: oldest daughter without telling me you're an oldest daughter. Yeah,
[00:31:47] Kori: or
[00:31:47] Laura: tell me you're a black, a person of color who's been pulled over by the police. Yes, or a black boy in public. Or a black boy in public.
[00:31:55] Right, or in school. Yes.
[00:31:59] Kori: Right?
[00:32:00] Laura: Yes.
[00:32:00] Kori: So, like, those experiences of, of, and this was a black woman who was talking, so, you know, Of often time being like tone policed, and your body language being policed, and your hair being policed, and your dress, the way you dress being policed, like that constant policing creates a situation in your brain where you're like, I'm not meeting some sort of standard, and so I'm constantly trying to meet this standard, but then you project that to other people, and so now you have an expectation that this standard that you have been acculturated into understanding as being close to perfect, Is what everybody should be embodying and embracing.
[00:32:44] So you have to be able to see and acknowledge that. Even just to say, Hey, I struggle with perfectionism, but I don't want to put that on you. I don't want to put that on you. And, and then it's like, how do we, everyone is, we know everyone's carrying different things. We've been trained differently. We have different lived experiences.
[00:33:03] And so my version of perfection or closeness to perfection is not the same as yours. And so if we're going to try to, to meet each other, then we need to talk about it. We need to set expectations around what we're doing that are shared. And it's not just me with my own narrative about what perfectionism is.
[00:33:27] that I'm imposing on you, it's like, here's what you're bringing, here's what I'm bringing, let's create some shared expectations so that then I'm not constantly disappointed and you're not constantly feel like you're a disappointment.
[00:33:41] Laura: And we're co creating the expectations as opposed to me imposing top down.
[00:33:45] Kori: Exactly. Because it's like, if I'm imposing and these aren't, these aren't your strengths or your areas of interest or expertise or any of that, then it is setting you up for failure, which is what white supremacy culture often does. Right? It's like there's no such thing as perfect and there is no such thing as objectivity.
[00:34:05] There
[00:34:07] Little Man: is,
[00:34:08] Kori: um, the people who have it, everyone doesn't deserve the right to comfort, right? And there's like a difference between safety and comfort, which is often conflated in this context. Right, like particularly
[00:34:21] Laura: around DEI conversations, right? As soon as you feel you're, you're, you're having a physical response of defensiveness, right?
[00:34:27] There's one white supremacy culture, um, tenant, they suddenly, this is wrong. I shouldn't have to feel this, right? That idea of right to comfort when in reality. Discomfort is fine, right? It's the, it's a, it's a lack of safety that's, that's, that's not fine,
[00:34:45] Kori: right? But that right to comfort, that right to comfort is so highly valued.
[00:34:50] It's so highly valued that when you are uncomfortable, you're, we're squirming, you're thinking that you're unsafe and that's not the same
[00:34:58] Laura: thing, right? I think we see that with a lot of the walking back of DEI policy now, this idea of like, well, we don't want to alienate our, our, our employees who are.
[00:35:10] We're trying or maybe you aren't there yet, and so we're going to preserve comfort over doing what's right and moving forward.
[00:35:18] Kori: Yeah. I mean, I also feel like it's just racism, just flat out racism like. The DEI language has been co opted, just like CRT was co opted to replace black and people of color.
[00:35:35] Laura: It's
[00:35:35] Kori: like,
[00:35:36] Laura: didn't I saw a headline about a black mayor and they said one of the news outlets in Baltimore called him the DEI mayor. Yeah. No, you mean black.
[00:35:46] Kori: Not to mention that like Baltimore is 60 percent black. That's appropriate. So if they had a white mayor. That would be the DEI mayor.
[00:35:54] Little Man: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:35:56] Didn't
[00:35:57] Laura: think of that, did we?
[00:35:58] Kori: Like, what are we even talking about? But it's like, it's, it's being used as a, as, as additional code language. Yeah, in the same way
[00:36:07] Laura: that woke became kind of a sarcastic or joke term. Oh, the woke, you know, like this is, this is another example of how that language is being co opted and weaponized.
[00:36:17] Kori: And this also goes back to the, the prototype, right? Because, Uh, trans kids are under attack as well, right? Um, all kids, honestly, are under attack because of the way in which our gun laws are written, right? That idea, that right to comfort, I can have my weapon. You, sick third grader, need to get trauma training and you need to, uh, be able to perform CPR and administer first aid.
[00:36:49] We're going to teach you all of that as opposed to create gun laws that make sense. Problem solved. Not quite. Right? Yeah. Because I, because I feel that entitlement, that right. To hold my weapon to protect myself from who
[00:37:07] Laura: this is not a visual medium. So I know share what you're doing right now. Were you pointing
[00:37:13] Kori: to myself, right?
[00:37:15] Or people who look like me and then it becomes a problem when people who look like me are also lever utilizing these same laws taking advantage. Now we have a big problem. We need a ban. Oh yeah. Yeah. People are getting that's when we're willing to bomb our own country. Right? Like what happened in Philadelphia, where the United States bombed one of its own cities to murder American U.
[00:37:39] S. citizens who were Black, that they felt like were Because they
[00:37:42] Laura: were armed. I think you just hit a table.
[00:37:46] Kori: I did.
[00:37:47] Laura: Was that good? Was that like an intentional hand down, like, yeah, that's right? Yes, that's right. Or was that a knee hit and you're like No. holding back curse words? Oh,
[00:37:53] Kori: no, no, that was a, yeah, that's right.
[00:37:55] Laura: That's right.
[00:37:56] Kori: Mm hmm. Uh, we hope that you have enjoyed, uh, this episode. This conversation, which is a little bit heavier, but we're definitely trying to, to align with pushing past polite and talking about things that really matter to us. So this is a long conversation. We broke it into two parts, so the next version, the next available, um, podcast, we'll continue this conversation and talk about a couple of other things.
[00:38:26] And we appreciate you just rolling with us on this journey where we talk about what matters and make the world more just.
[00:38:33] Little Man: Yeah, thanks for a
[00:38:34] Kori: little
[00:38:34] Laura: best. That's right. Thanks for any, if you had feelings of discomfort, if you had some, ooh, ow, this is weird. This is the first time I'm hearing this. Thank you for listening and pushing through.
[00:38:45] And we hope that, um, you know, keep thinking about it. Keep talking about it with people, ask questions, read. Uh, we'd love to engage with you as well. Thanks so much for joining us. See you next time. Take care.
Kori: Thanks for listening to Pushing Past Polite. We encourage you to go deeper in your trusted spaces and find new space for good conversation.
Laura: You'll find episodes, transcripts, and lots of other goodies at our website, pushingpastpolitepodcast.com. You can also connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Pushing Past Polite.
Kori: Pushing Past Polite is an independent podcast with Kori and Laura from Just Educators. Our cover
Laura: art was designed by Rachel Welsh De Iga of De Iga Design, and our audio is produced by Keith at Headset Media. Until next time, don't get stuck talking about the weather. Push past polite.
Kori: See you next time.
Little Dude: Bye bye.
Laura: Jay, you did perfect!
