Meet Lisa. Reclaim your power, cut kids’ food small, and go to community centers. (Ep.34).
Show notes and sneak peek
Episode 34 sneak peek with Dr. Lisa Mazzio, with strategies on how to reclaim our power in high control situations. What a match for the moment! Don’t miss it!
Who needs to hear how to reclaim their power? Share this episode with people in your life that would benefit (pushingpastpolitepodcast.com) and talk about it together! Give us a review on your podcast app, engage with our posts on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube so other folks can find us.
Dr. Lisa Mazzio, Clinical Psychologist and Owner of Watermark Psychological Services in Norfolk, Virginia joins us as our second ever pod guest! Not only has she known Laura for over 25 years (!!), but she specializes in providing therapy to folks in high control relationships. Does that sound like it meets our political moment or what?
Lisa shares what she’s seeing broadly across her therapy sessions and shares that it feels very similar to counseling during covid where everyone felt like they were in a pressure cooker. Lisa reads a powerful quote from The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene and we see how the president is trying to strategically suspend us in terror. We discuss the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn responses folks are exhibiting and how bombardment limits freedom of thought. It makes you overwhelmed and it tempts you to get small. But, as Ezra Klein recently said in his podcast, “Don’t Believe Him!”
Kori prompts us to investigate why some folks believed him in the first place, sharing that if you thought YOU were safe at the expense of others, you’re now in danger. Marginalized folks know this lesson all too well. If we don’t look out for all of humanity, we are all vulnerable.
We dive into how to manage the overwhelm and still stay active. Divide up the work. Find one thing you really care about - listen to your anger - and invest your energy there - and find like minded friends to take on the other parts. Then share and learn together. And don’t underestimate the power of real world, in person, local action. Show up to your local community center and ask how you can help. You’ll get out of yourself and gain perspective.
We also talk about how we’re processing the current state of our nation with our children by prioritizing freedom of thought, developmentally appropriate access to information, and encouraging them to support their opinions with facts. While the world is FAFO (effing around and finding out), we want to reclaim the term and be the Fun Aunties Fighting Oppression - working shoulder-to-shoulder in our friend groups, in raising our children, and at our community centers!
Sidenote: Words are hard for Laura today. Please forgive her. She’s fine. ;) And Lisa, come back again soon!
Resources
Coming soon!
Transcript
[00:00:00] Lisa: I guess the best way to say it is, everyone's freaking out.
[00:00:04] Laura: Freaking the fuck out.
[00:00:07] Lisa: Everyone's freaking out.
[00:00:08] Laura: Yes.
[00:00:08] Lisa: I told somebody yesterday that I feel like I am back in COVID days of, um, stress and tension and fear. But we're not in Covid and you know, working through Covid, that's a whole other separate professional experience that I have.
[00:00:26] We
[00:00:26] Kori: might be in Covid, but since the CDC can't send out any communications, we wouldn't. And the NIH wouldn't, we wouldn't know because Turbo tuberculosis is running rampant in Kansas right now. And who knows where else is spreading too. Wouldn't Polio
[00:00:38] Little Man: Co
[00:00:39] Kori: and po Exactly. Like for real, we, and maybe we are in Covid.
[00:00:42] Maybe that's our body's trying to tell us something.
[00:00:45] Laura: Maybe it knows. And U-S-A-A-U-S-A-I-D being canceled means Ebola is going to. Run out of control in other
[00:00:51] Kori: countries. Maybe we're an Ebola shit. Who knows? Pick your next germ, friends. In a bowl of shit.
[00:01:10] Laura: Welcome to Pushing Past Polite where we talk about what matters and make the world more just. I'm Laura. I'm Kori. And we have a special guest today. We do. I'm so honored and excited. First of all, I get an excuse to get on her calendar and see her during the work day which feels like impossible for Three working friends to even try, but a long time friend of mine, but also a very, very accomplished professional has joined us today.
[00:01:35] This is my friend, Dr. D Lisa Mazzio. Let me say your name again. I just, like, stumbled over your name. How did I do that? What were you gonna call her? I I said D'Lisa Mazzio. Yeah, know. It was like, your husband's name is Dan. I don't know if I was looking at the Mazzio and I went with husband instead of cause you're always Squicciarini for me.
[00:01:56] Like, first, I have to work myself out of
[00:01:58] Lisa: that. Yes.
[00:01:59] Laura: That was a long time ago.
[00:02:00] Lisa: Kori is alarmed at that word, yes.
[00:02:02] Laura: Oh, by the way, all Italian connections here, um, Kori's husband is Italian and Creole. Is that right, Kori?
[00:02:09] Kori: Yep.
[00:02:10] Laura: And anyway, she's been working on Italian citizenship and mapping that back for potential dual citizenship for her and her kiddos and him.
[00:02:17] So, we got, uh, what are the last names on your side, Kori?
[00:02:21] Kori: Camallo.
[00:02:22] Laura: Camallo. We got Squicciarini. We got Boccanfuso. And Mazzio, which is also Italian. Oh, that's true. And Mazzio. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. I'm thinking Squicciarini.
[00:02:32] Kori: Yeah.
[00:02:33] Laura: Go down the male bloodline. It's easier. Huh. Okay. Good tip.
[00:02:37] Yeah. We'll work on that. There was a
[00:02:39] Kori: period of time when, like, the woman couldn't pass her, her citizenship down through bloodline. It only came through men. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so if that person had the child before that year, I think it was 1948 or something, if the kid was born before 1948, then that pathway to citizenship isn't available to you.
[00:02:58] Is a dead
[00:02:59] Laura: end. Well, smash that patriarchy. Bam. She said bam. Okay. So today we have with us somebody who's been very special to me for a long time. We met at the ripe young age of probably 18 and 19, somewhere in there. Um, but she has since gone on to do really great things and she is Not only my friend Lisa, she is Dr.
[00:03:21] Lisa.
[00:03:22] Kori: Why can I not say it?
[00:03:24] Laura: I said Lisa. Do I need to do
[00:03:25] Kori: this? Do I need to say this? I don't know.
[00:03:27] Laura: There is only water in here. I don't understand. Why are
[00:03:29] Kori: you so nervous? I am. It's Lisa Mazzio. I just met her today. Get it out, Laura. Get it out. Get it out. She's special to you. She is and I'm She's a doctor.
[00:03:42] She's a doctor. She's your friend for 20 plus years.
[00:03:46] Laura: On that note, what Get it out. Yeah, don't, don't trust me with the important jobs today. Apparently I'm still coming to you. Lisa, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. I am thrilled to be here with you
[00:03:59] Lisa: guys. Aww, even with our antics? Even with your, especially with your antics.
[00:04:03] Laura: I love you so
[00:04:04] Lisa: much. Laura has been as funny as she is now for as long as I've known her. Yes.
[00:04:10] Laura: I am thankful you've kept me despite the antics all this time. So, Lisa and I met through a mutual friend, Melanie, who we all both adore. Hey Mel! Hey Mel! Mel and Lisa went to high school together, and Melanie and I went to college together.
[00:04:27] So Lisa came to Lisa
[00:04:29] Lisa: visited Melanie at college and met Laura.
[00:04:31] Laura: And was like, that girl. Oh, and you
[00:04:33] Lisa: left with Laura. And you left with her. Oh! Instant chemistry, connection, can't be broken. There's probably been years where we haven't connected with Laura, and as soon as we do, we pick right back up.
[00:04:44] Laura: Mm hmm.
[00:04:45] No, I love that. I love that about a friendship. Yeah, anything about Topsail Island or a
[00:04:49] Kori: That should be a T shirt: came to see Mel and left with Laura.
[00:04:52] Laura: Yeah, I don't know. Mel's pretty awesome. I don't know if that was I'm not saying
[00:04:55] Kori: that you guys broke up, but I'm just saying it's like, you know, you come the two on the front and then the three on the back.
[00:05:01] Laura: Yeah. That's a great idea. Maybe it's a tattoo. We'll see how this goes.
[00:05:05] Kori: That
[00:05:05] Laura: sounds aggressive, but okay. It does. It does. But I love these girls. They're phenomenal. So, Lisa, can you introduce yourself to us? Just tell us how you show up in the world. Like how do you, if you had to introduce yourself to someone, what would you say?
[00:05:18] And that way we'll, we'll jump in a little bit based on your, your take. We'll follow you.
[00:05:24] Lisa: Well, just a quick intro for me. I am Lisa Mazzio, as just as Laura has struggled to say, was Laura struggled to say. I am a licensed clinical psychologist. I have worked as a psychologist for about 15 years. I own a private practice in Norfolk, Virginia, which is an amazing adventure.
[00:05:47] I, um, love doing clinical work. My job is my passion, and I feel like I'm one of the lucky few that gets to say that I get to, um, wake up and never work a day in my life. So, every day is an adventure in mental health and mental health care and I think, um, last year I surpassed a 20, 000 hours of actual direct care given to individuals.
[00:06:08] I've done a lot of direct care and again, I, I couldn't love it, every day I love it more. So, it's an incredible privilege to, to do my job and, um, I love to talk about it too because I think it's, there's a lot of mystery surrounding mental health care and I'm here to demystify and talk about. All the things that make everyone's life better.
[00:06:32] That's my professional self.
[00:06:34] Kori: Um, I Wait, before you move on, do you have a, a demographic, like a specialty or like a particular, um, area that you focus on or a group that you support?
[00:06:45] Lisa: Yeah, I'm a generalist, but over the years I have a couple of niches that I developed. So I, I don't do therapy directly with children.
[00:06:54] I work with adults. Uh huh. I work with, um I'll follow a lot of families. I do testing and assessment.
[00:07:03] Kori: Okay.
[00:07:04] Lisa: Within my clinical work, I work with a lot of families that are in high conflict situations.
[00:07:12] Kori: Okay.
[00:07:12] Lisa: I work with women that are leaving high control environments. Wow. Okay. Um, over the years, it's kind of increased to, um, complex, acute situations.
[00:07:22] So, um, yeah, difficult divorces, complex families, things like that. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Um. Within my practice, there's other professionals that do play therapy, work with adolescents, and that's just so great. They're so talented. And I just love what they do. That's, that's not what I, that's not what I do though.
[00:07:45] Um, I work, I wrangle the parents. That's what I do. Yes. Yes, the
[00:07:49] Laura: harder and perhaps less cute job.
[00:07:51] Lisa: Way less cute.
[00:07:52] Laura: You are not acting cute right now. Get yourself together. That is way less cute.
[00:07:58] Lisa: Um, and, um, yeah, that's, that's my, that's my professional work.
[00:08:05] Laura: Okay, sorry. When you go home, put on that other hat.
[00:08:07] Tell me what the rest of your love
[00:08:08] Lisa: working with, um, like, people that are, you know, going on existential journeys, figuring out what their purpose is. Um, you know, getting unstuck from patterns of generational trauma and abuse, I mean all those kind of things. So.
[00:08:22] Kori: Yep.
[00:08:23] Lisa: The, the messier the better, I've decided.
[00:08:26] Laura: It's a real life Fluffy. Mm hmm.
[00:08:27] Lisa: So.
[00:08:28] Laura: I can't imagine somebody better to wade through that with than you. You are.
[00:08:32] Lisa: I think I do like the challenge of it. It's never boring. Um, okay, so then the other side of my life, which I'm constantly balancing, is that I am married to Dan. He is a fantastic, um, attorney and dad, and we've been married for a lot of years.
[00:08:47] Maybe, what, 18? Something, something around this point. Yeah. And we have four children. Your marriage is an adult. Yep, we have four children. Um, so I have a set of identical twins that are 15 and a half. And that's, that's
[00:09:00] Laura: really, that's an adventure too, they're, they're I can
[00:09:02] Kori: only imagine. That alone,
[00:09:04] Laura: the fact that anyone who has multiples is like, I want to do this again, blows my mind.
[00:09:08] Did we say
[00:09:09] Kori: yet
[00:09:09] Laura: that her
[00:09:09] Kori: husband is Dan and mine is Daniel?
[00:09:12] Laura: Oh no, I don't think we've made that clear, but it's helpful to know.
[00:09:14] Kori: And I'm Laura Danielle,
[00:09:15] Laura: but it's fine, we'll just mess everybody up. Oh,
[00:09:17] Kori: right, we'll just mess everybody up.
[00:09:18] Lisa: Confusing!
[00:09:21] Kori: Okay, so identical, identical twins. Identical
[00:09:23] Lisa: girls, yep. And then I have a seven year old and a nine year old as well.
[00:09:28] And the, the three top are girls and then the little one's a boy.
[00:09:32] Laura: Is he your little prince?
[00:09:35] Lisa: I do, don't tell the others, okay? I do love him. It's not like this is
[00:09:38] Laura: public or anything. It's fine. They'll never have a bad fact. I won't tell. Uh huh.
[00:09:44] Kori: I mean like nine and seven is enough right there. That's like, and then 15 too at the same time.
[00:09:50] We need to just
[00:09:50] Lisa: take a lot more bandwidth than the little kids at this stage. Yeah. I would say it's You don't realize it, but it's not that hard to cut food into small pieces when you're, when you have little kids. But the teenagers, they require a ton of emotional parenting. Yeah. Yes. We, we just started driving with them, so.
[00:10:07] Woo! How are you?
[00:10:10] Laura: Are you okay?
[00:10:10] Lisa: Well, I actually have retired myself already from the job.
[00:10:14] Laura: You're like, congratulations, Dan.
[00:10:16] Lisa: Yeah. Dan, welcome. Welcome to driving school.
[00:10:18] Laura: You're the instructor.
[00:10:19] Lisa: Let me catch you up. The dad is in charge of that, but also their grandfather picks them up every weekend and takes them driving.
[00:10:26] Laura: Oh, nice. I love that. Military grandfather? Yes. He's going to get this shit straight. Don't worry. You're fine. That's very smart to outsource. That's so
[00:10:33] Kori: great. Yeah. Peter. I love a wonderful, like, time of connection and bonding and just, like, that. And a little bit of a break for the parents, like, you guys go enjoy grandpappy over there.
[00:10:47] While I focus up on cutting the small food.
[00:10:53] Lisa: Cutting food into small pieces is the main parenting role at that age, yeah. Right. No, yeah, that's been great. I, I'm really blessed to have a great relationship with my parents and they live close by and they're, they're involved. They, I always, people always ask me, how do you do it all? I don't. Right. It's a shared responsibility.
[00:11:08] So, um. It takes a village
[00:11:10] Laura: and thankfully yours is in town.
[00:11:11] Lisa: Truly. Truly. Truly. And I, and I know that not everybody has that in. Um, I'm, I don't, I don't, you know, I, I don't take that for granted. So, yeah. So that's a little bit about me. Uh, um, I have a lot of really great friends that I feel like they're the ones that keep me alive, you know, day to day, my girlfriends.
[00:11:28] So
[00:11:29] Laura: where would we be?
[00:11:30] Lisa: Where would we be?
[00:11:31] Laura: I'd love, God, love female friends. Seriously. Exactly. I remember when I was a teenager and thinking like, like male friends were cool. Like women are too, you know, girls are too much. Guys, it's more fun to hang out with them, no drama, and I'm like, I have no interest in anyone else with a penis.
[00:11:47] Like, I just want to hang out with women all the time. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I love my husband, but generally when I'm with dudes, I'm not like, yeah, I crave more of this time. Uh uh. I love this. This is phenomenal. The village. Yes. That's
[00:12:02] Lisa: me in a nutshell.
[00:12:04] Laura: I love it. I love it. Um, and Lisa is, has, her family is beautiful.
[00:12:09] Her husband is super kind and lovely. I love him too. We, um, spent, well, this is pre kids, but I spent a summer in her town when I was in college and We rode bikes all over that sweet little area of Norfolk and Um, oh yeah. We dog sat together. Remember for that big ass dog? Oh my gosh. The Mastiff. His head was as big as my head and I was a little afraid.
[00:12:31] I was more than a little afraid. How do you know that? And I'm not afraid of dogs, but this guy, when he looked at you, he was, he was serious. But yeah, we had lots of fun, lots of fun memories that summer. And going into that church together, was it Third Pres?
[00:12:44] Laura: Oh. Something about something pres.
[00:12:46] Your high school. Trinity. Trinity. Third. C3. Trinity. Triune. Yes. Somewhere in there. Exactly. Um, it was a great summer. I really loved it.
[00:12:54] Kori: Aw.
[00:12:55] Laura: As we are in this moment. Now, let me also date this recording. We are recording on February 7th because everything happens in such a wild shitstorm. Yes. So if this airs.
[00:13:06] And you're like, I can't believe they didn't talk about XYZ. It could be perhaps XYZ hasn't happened yet. Um, but given the pace of the craziness right now, both in our world and specifically in the leadership in our country, um, what is on your mind as mom of four, as woman with, you know, a uterus and ovaries?
[00:13:27] And three daughters. And three daughters coming of age. Uh huh. And as clinical psychologist, Dr. Lisa Mazzio, like, what is on your mind and what would you like to talk about?
[00:13:39] Lisa: Well, that's a generous offer to let me lead the way here, but what I think would be awesome for us to talk about is just sort of what I am observing happening with the large amount of people that I interact with all the time, which is very much in aligned with, you know, pushing past polite here, which is that.
[00:13:59] I guess the best way to say it is everyone's freaking out.
[00:14:04] Laura: Freaking the fuck out.
[00:14:06] Lisa: Everyone's freaking out.
[00:14:08] Laura: Yes.
[00:14:08] Lisa: I told somebody yesterday, yesterday that I feel like I am back in COVID levels of days of um, stress and tension and fear. But we're not in COVID and you know, working through COVID, that's a whole other separate You know, professional experience that I have.
[00:14:30] Kori: We might be in COVID, but since the CDC can't send out any communications, and the NIH, we wouldn't know, because tuberculosis is running rampant in Kansas right now, and who knows where else it is spreading to. It might be
[00:14:42] Kori: in measles and polio, Kori. Exactly! Like, for real. Maybe we are in COVID. Maybe that dead body is trying to tell us something.
[00:14:48] Laura: Maybe it knows. And USAID being cancelled means Ebola is going to run out of control in other countries. Maybe we're
[00:14:55] Kori: in Ebola. Um, maybe we're in a bowl of shit. Okay? Who knows? Pick your next germ, friends. In a bowl of shit.
[00:15:03] Lisa: People ask me, like, are people coming and talking about this stuff? And it's not that they are.
[00:15:07] I mean, there are people that do specifically have daily impacts about what's happening. But what it is, is it's this phenomenon that it's like we're in this pressure cooker. So everyone's baseline issues, which everybody has, is are all escalated in this stew of fear. And so everybody feels like we're, we're higher level of need, higher level of crisis.
[00:15:35] People don't, people aren't finding stability and peace. Um, and I don't necessarily mean that like, Unstable mental health. I just mean a sense of stability, a sense of well being, the way that, you know, prior to, what day was inauguration?
[00:15:53] Laura: January 20th.
[00:15:54] Lisa: Yeah. January 19th, we had a little shift.
[00:16:00] Laura: So, heightened baseline for people, this sense of, I don't know what's coming next, this is like pressure cooker as you're saying, and it, it feels like COVID times again.
[00:16:12] Lisa: Just like everything's uncertain. And that's, you know, in a lot of my work I work with a lot of people that are navigating power and control dynamics. And I think that would be, that's a really helpful thing for us to kind of maybe dive into a little bit today to talk about, which is that, um, what I'm starting to realize, even personally going through that, and maybe you guys can relate to this too, is that it's really overwhelming.
[00:16:34] And then that starts to make us feel feelings. Um, do you guys feel like that?
[00:16:39] Laura: Do you see my eyes? Yes, very much so. Um, I, I mean, I think it's, Kori, you, you tell me too, but like I think this is all strategy too, from politicians to overwhelm, to flood the zone, right? So you can't fight because you just want to get small.
[00:16:57] Lisa: Well, um, you know, that's the basic response to a threat.
[00:17:01] Laura: Right.
[00:17:01] Lisa: Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. Do you guys know what fawning is? Yes. Right. But feel free,
[00:17:06] Laura: but explain. Feel free in case somebody doesn't.
[00:17:08] Lisa: So there's fighting, which is obviously fighting. There's flighting, which is running away, avoiding. The freezing, which is what I think the tactic is, is freeze to disarm.
[00:17:18] And then there's fawning, which is, um, essentially aligning with the abuser so that the abuser stops abusing you. And I do think a lot of that's going on too. So in the fight, flight, freeze, fawn. This is, you know, that Ezra, the Ezra Klein podcast we were talking about, Laura, um, the “Don't Believe Him.” I think that's a really helpful switch this week for everybody, which is the tactic of being overwhelmed is how they gain more control.
[00:17:48] Right. So what are we supposed to do about that? Right. And that's what I think, I think we could talk about some practical pieces of that too. But it's on purpose. That's the part that's 100 percent real. It's a real, you know, mind, mind F, right? It's on purpose.
[00:18:03] Kori: Yeah, and it's long. It was a long con a long game strategy, right?
[00:18:09] Like the idea was, we are going to tell all the different groups that whatever they need to hear to get on our side and get over here because we need to use this pathway. to ultimately achieve the takeover. We tried to do it the rough way. We tried an insurrection. We tried to just discredit the process before.
[00:18:36] That didn't work. So, we need to use the process to then access the space to then blitz the population. Right? And so that's what they did.
[00:18:49] Lisa: When you put people in, when you overwhelm people, you, they become complacent, hopeless, hopeless. And compliant.
[00:18:58] Kori: And they, people were already. Occupying that space in so many ways, right?
[00:19:03] Like, people were already feeling like we have to work so much just to make our basic ends meet. There are so many people who are working multiple jobs. We all work, you described it, we all work in two income households. Yes. Right? And so the idea That we all have to be working in order to support our lifestyles, our livelihoods, our expectations, afford our homes and buy groceries and all of that kind of stuff.
[00:19:34] And then you put hundreds of thousands of people and notice that they may not have any livelihood as of yesterday. They could choose to opt out. But what does that mean for them? What is the future for them and their families? And like, that's creating that chaos. You start literally picking people up.
[00:19:53] Showing up to school, showing up to churches, showing up to houses, showing up to hospitals, showing up to neighborhoods, showing up to check ins for people who are on the pro in the pathway to citizenship. Showing up to their check in points and it messages the
[00:20:09] Lisa: rest of us. Nowhere is safe. You are not safe.
[00:20:13] Anywhere. Exactly. You cannot be safe no matter where you go. Yes. And even for people who have the privilege of not being the targets of that. When we hear and experience the message that nowhere is safe and there's nothing you can do about it, that is really heavy. It is very difficult to carry that around.
[00:20:34] A lot of, uh, people that I talk to all the time say, well, what am I supposed to, what can I possibly do? I can't do anything. And I think that there's a piece of that that is authentic in that, you know, we're not all federal judges and we're not directly interfering, but I think there are things that we can do.
[00:20:53] I think that it starts by saying, we are not going to believe him. We're going to start to realize that the lies are part of the tactic. And we're going to start to protect our energy so that we can keep on actually reacting and not just get into a freeze mode.
[00:21:12] Kori: Yes. I would want to take a step back and be like, why did I believe him to begin with?
[00:21:18] I want people to do some of that investigating. It's like, why was I willing to accept? The harm to other people in the ability to protect myself, and that could be part of the fawning or, but it's like, why was I willing to engage with that? Why was I willing to support that? Because some of the people who you see having the most visceral and hard reactions are people who actually loudly supported him.
[00:21:45] and voted for him, right? And so I would also want people to think about what was their motivation to do that and then what is their motivation to stop listening and to try to do something differently, right? Is it still about self preservation? Because if it's only about protecting yourself then we're going to keep finding ourselves in these kinds of patterns.
[00:22:11] Right? If, if you not, if you not listening and shifting, it's only about you, you and your safety.
[00:22:20] Laura: Versus broader humanity. Yeah, I think, to your point, like, a lot of people are experiencing this fear, this sense of nowhere is safe in America for the first time. We talked about this in our last pod a little bit, about how I think particularly white people are freaking out because this is new to us.
[00:22:38] The experience of so many other marginalized communities is, there have been laws on the books against me. There have been, you know, even if there wasn't, I got called all kinds of crazy things in public all the time. Where I've had these experiences, it's new for us, which is what makes it so jarring, I think, for maybe some of your clients.
[00:22:57] Um, but it does, I think Kori's point is right too, like we have to, if, if we're only worried about us getting through this crisis, we've learned nothing. We've learned nothing. So if we only are in it for our own, our own individual survival, us four no more mentality, then we haven't learned.
[00:23:17] Kori: And that's actually what I am, you know.
[00:23:20] I'm like a hopeful skepticist because I'm like, come on, white people. Catch up, come on, not just catch, not just catch up, but be willing. Like, be willing to do that hard work, that hard work of looking here, of self reflecting, of unpacking why you were willing to find us in this space in the first place.
[00:23:42] Be willing to do some of that work, and not just how are we gonna get out of it. Because those two things are connected.
[00:23:48] Laura: And maybe it isn't so much that they voted for, it's that they didn't have hard conversations with that racist uncle. Or with that parent or neighbor or whatever. No,
[00:23:56] Kori: they didn't vote.
[00:23:57] Any of the things. They were just gonna ride it out. There's so many, there's so many layers to the, like, how he got in there. But I'm just saying, this is jarring, but why is it jarring? Cause it's been happening to a lot of people for a long time and you've been aware of it. So, like, why is it jarring, and then who are you focusing on when we're talking about changing what's happening?
[00:24:18] Are you still only centered on you? Or are you thinking about the community at large so that these kinds of things won't be happening again?
[00:24:26] Laura And again, again.
[00:24:27] Kori: It's like, we talk about the Constitution, and the Constitution was racist. Because the people who were writing the Constitution also were slaveholders, right?
[00:24:37] They owned people. So, When we're thinking about disruption and dismantling, it's like we have to be thinking about it in a way. That is not recentering you and your big feelings because other people have literally been persevering through this for centuries here.
[00:24:57] Lisa: I like to think of this as a growth opportunity for individuals that really only have been centered about, you know, thinking about self centered, um, you know, issues.
[00:25:07] And, um, I was thinking when you were talking before that the best way to tell a lie is to start with a partial piece of truth. And so I do think that. And maybe when we think about why or why were people unwilling to be open to what was actually truly happening is because there's pieces that when there are people that are in positions of power that intend to abuse using other people, they know how to actually appeal to things that are true enough to get you to look away from the collective and to focus on these micro topics.
[00:25:43] Right? Yeah. And the definition of abuse is a misuse of power.
[00:25:47] Kori: And Mm hmm.
[00:25:49] Lisa: We have to think about how are we contributing to that when we are also aligning and without the intention of harm. But that is not relevant when we talk about intention versus impact.
[00:26:08] Laura: So what have you learned from, well, probably your training too, but also in working with people who are in situations?
[00:26:15] And please feel free if anything gets too, too touchy or too sensitive, tell me and we'll pivot. But this idea of what have you learned about high control situations, the tactics, what to look for. Well, and again, we're seeing it in large scale right now, but also like how to take your power back from that.
[00:26:32] So you don't have to freeze, fawn, flight, flee, or what was the other one? It's like, Oh, I was going to say another F word. That's not right. Fight, flight, breeze, fawn. Thank you for going nice and slow. Words are hard today. Words are hard. Lisa Mazzio, I can say it. Yeah, what have you learned in terms of both the abuser type behaviors, you know, the people that are drawn to this, and how we can reclaim power?
[00:27:01] Lisa: I think, and I think this is what the collective feel is, it feels like, am I in crazy town, right, is that's when we start doubting ourselves and feeling the confusion and the chaos. Is a real warning sign.
[00:27:15] Kori: So, and
[00:27:15] Lisa: I do think that's what's happening with the, the media currently as well. And so, when we look at this bombardment tactic and there's not, there's, it just goes from one thing to the next to the next, that is the, you know, that's the attempt to disarm by being overwhelmed.
[00:27:34] And so, something about high control environments is that they don't let you think your own thoughts. They say what to think about. And if you look, if you step back and look at what's happening is that that entire group of power abusing people are not letting us even have enough time to think our own thoughts before we have to think about something else, the thing that they're wanting us to think about.
[00:27:58] So freedom of thought is a really important Um, aspect of, of high control environment. So what do we do is that we don't participate.
[00:28:08] Kori: Mm.
[00:28:09] Lisa: Slippery slope though, right girls? Because how are we supposed to not participate but also still participate?
[00:28:16] Laura: Yeah, we don't wanna, we don't want to, yeah, I've, I, the idea of, you know, the Germans just let, I shouldn't say all, generalize, but like The German people were overwhelmed and just let the Holocaust happen, right?
[00:28:29] Um, so how can we be active and be guarding against that? What is the right balance between engagement and protecting peace?
[00:28:37] Kori: One of the things is like, stop looking to other people for the answers. Like, The leaders, the people who are in these positions of power are not going to save you. They created this for you.
[00:28:48] Like, separate that. Like, there has been a really great conditioning and acculturation that we are supposed to look to them for the solution. And we have this, this way we put people, we vote people in who are supposed to be representing our interests and blah blah blah bullshit. Like, that's not the reality.
[00:29:10] So kind of like create some of that separation around believing that there is a hero somewhere else. You are the hero. There isn't, there isn't somebody who is going to come save you. We have to be the hero and we have to connect with other heroes. Like we have to form.
[00:29:31] Lisa: What would you say to people that are like, okay, I want, I want to do it.
[00:29:35] What do I do? It's like, well,
[00:29:39] Kori: I want to do what? What's the what? What is the what you want to be
[00:29:42] Lisa: part of the, I want to be part of the progress. What do I do?
[00:29:45] Kori: Alright, well, what are you good at? Can you make phone calls? Right? Are you comfortable calling people and leaving message? Are you good at writing?
[00:29:53] Are you good at creating graphics? Like, let's get a message together. Let's come together, get a message together. And then everyone has a responsibility and it stays within their lane, but we're moving toward a shared purpose. We're moving toward a shared vision. So it's like, you don't have to do all of the things, but if you are in a coalition, if you are in a community, it's like lean on the people who have different strengths and allow those people to exercise those things in that space.
[00:30:19] So that it doesn't, and share it, talk about, talk about the pieces that feel heavy and overwhelming with other people. So then you don't feel like you're isolated, which is another tactic. You feeling by yourself makes it feel more overwhelming. So if you can be in community with people who are able to share that they're also experiencing this level of fear and chaos and uncertainty and that you all can together identify ways that as a community you can move in a different direction, then it feels less burdensome.
[00:30:54] Lisa: Something that I saw somewhere that was really helpful was that when it does feel like an overwhelming burden, in your circle, divide up the things to care about.
[00:31:04] Kori: Yes.
[00:31:05] Lisa: So, if I want to care about, you know, if I care about, um,
[00:31:11] Laura: Elon Musk's takeover and taking our social security numbers and bank accounts.
[00:31:16] Kori: Right. You fight that. We can keep us all posted. What'd you say? Kori, what'd you say? I said, keep us all posted. Yeah. We all don't need to be following that. That's you. You're following that part.
[00:31:26] Lisa: And that helps from, that helps with the fatigue because I think what I would love these listeners to take away from is that you cannot give up and get complacent here.
[00:31:36] We are not going to believe his lies. We are not going to be forced into a freeze position where we just say, well, I guess it is what it is. That is when they actually achieve the power, the abuse of power that they are seeking.
[00:31:51] Laura: Because you believed them.
[00:31:53] Kori: And stop thinking the media is news, that it's actually information, good information.
[00:31:59] They trade in
[00:32:00] Laura: attention. Yeah,
[00:32:01] Kori: it is like, that is not They're talking about he's, um, stretching his power, uh, within the Constitution. And it's like, no, he is not doing that. He is doing something much more aggressive, which is really what the Constitution was designed to prevent from happening. And so, like, that's reinforcing those narratives, that, that mindset, that, the lie.
[00:32:28] Sorry, Lisa. So, I have this book.
[00:32:30] Lisa: It's called The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene. Have you guys ever heard of this book? This is like Banned in Prisons and things like that. It's, it's essentially, it's essentially like 48 chapters on how to take over the world. It's this book. Ooh, I'm glad you have
[00:32:44] Laura: that.
[00:32:45] Lisa: Can you make sure we lock that down? It's a really fascinating book and it talks about power techniques. And so I actually was looking at it to prepare for today. And can I read you a sentence from it? Please. This is really helpful. This is Law 17, which is called Keep Others in Suspended Terror. Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity.
[00:33:09] Your predictability gives them a sense of control. Turn the tables. Be deliberately unpredictable. Behavior that has no consistency will keep them off balance, and they will wear themselves out trying to explain your moves. Taken to an extreme. This strategy, this strategy will intimidate and terrorize people.
[00:33:28] And again, it's a really diabolical book, but it's important as a person who studies power and control to understand how people use power and control, misuse power and control. And I, I just was horrified when I was just thumbing through this book to look at this because there it is, right? And I want all of us to say, no, we're not going to be terrorized.
[00:33:48] We're not going to lay down and say, we are too tired. We're not just going to be in shock and awe and say, oh no, we can't do it. We're going to work together, divide up how we're going to care about these things, because you can't care about everything. And press on. Yes. That's why you need your power back.
[00:34:06] Yeah. You don't live in shock and awe. You say, okay, yeah, I expect that. Your behavior tells me that you're going to keep doing that, but I am not going to give up.
[00:34:14] Laura: And that might be in groups that you already meet with, right? If you already have a book club, if you already have a group of friends, your, your female circle.
[00:34:21] Your women that you come to. That may be where that gets divided. The other thing to think about, especially for people who maybe don't have that circle or don't have like minded friends at this point in time, I don't want you to think that all is lost for you. Something that I think is really important is not recreating the wheel on trying to solve this on your own and figure out how to tackle it.
[00:34:39] Plug into organizations that are already fighting whatever it is that you care about, right? So is it the ACLU? Is it the Trevor Project? Is it about a transgender focused group? Is it, you know, what is the it? And use that, I, this is kind of a silly example, but I feel like, and again, very, very well meaning people.
[00:34:58] I know a bunch of people who are like, I want to start an animal rescue. I'm like, y'all, you already have them. Why would you go through all the legal paperwork to set up your 501c3, all this stuff? Just find a group that's already doing it. And I think that applies here too. How can I, with my This also goes
[00:35:13] Kori: back to the motivation.
[00:35:15] Like. Why do you need to start it? Why do you need to start it? These things exist. What is the motivation? Who are you trying to save? Or who are you trying to demonstrate that you're saving?
[00:35:30] Laura: Or is it the individuality in Americans that says, I need to do it differently. I don't like the way they do this.
[00:35:35] This part makes me mad. I'm doing it my way. Guess what? It's time for the collective. It is not time to furj, further, words are so hard, further individuate. It is time for us to say, we find common ground here, let's connect and let's use our power collectively. Yeah.
[00:35:51] Kori: It's like, hey, you have an animal, uh, rescue.
[00:35:54] Um, I'm like 40 miles out from where you are. Do you think we could have a satellite location? You already have the rescue. We can set up a schedule where I bring, if you have the space, we bring the animals from our area to your area because we don't have a rescue. If at some point, it's like, this
[00:36:12] Lisa: The other thing I like to say is just say, what can I do?is
[00:36:16] What do you need? How can I help? Yes. And joining a team. Yeah. Because the other piece of
[00:36:22] Laura: this is, I don't know very many people that have unlimited bandwidth to do the thing and save the world and show up as the hero, right? Most of us.
Lisa: No one does.
Laura: All three of us on this call, right? Dually, like both of us work, all of us working, multiple children, some of them driving, some of them needing some serious emotional guidance, some of them needing their food cut up, right?
[00:36:41] We got the whole gamut.
[00:36:43] Kori: Into small pieces.
[00:36:44] Laura: Into small, non chokeable pieces, and we put them in their car seats, and all five Yes!
Lisa: Yeah, cut those grapes, girls.
Laura: Cut those hot dogs, too. You know? Like, we We don't have unlimited bandwidth to save the world, and so don't get stuck in what you can't take on on your own.
[00:37:01] Find people who are also like minded to tackle that together.
[00:37:06] Kori: Or to And that's not as hard as it sounds these days. Like Not. It's not as hard as it sounds. You know, like, social media makes it easier. There are groups, I mean, I don't know if you want to be in there in the Meta world, but you know
Laura: That's a whole other It's still a way Debate for me.
[00:37:21] A whole other debate, right. But there's still like a way to connect. It's still a way to connect and find people. Um, there are community centers, like in your community, there are centers that are called community centers that can serve as the center for the community, the place where people come together.
[00:37:42] Lisa:What is it again, Kori? What's it called again? A
[00:37:43] Kori: community center. I can't remember. It's a center for a community, so it's a Right? Right? It's like places like libraries can be meeting places and connection places where it's like I want to make sure that people are able to have access to the books and the literature and the complete history of our country and not just some perspective that is one sided.
[00:38:07] There are so many places if you don't like to do the digital stuff, there are places in real life that you can show up to.
[00:38:18] Laura: In the center of communities.
[00:38:19] Kori: In the center of communities.
[00:38:22] Laura: Yeah, no, I mean, it's a great point. I think about, now again, I've developed my social feeds over time that I am getting the kind of inputs that I am looking for in terms of making a difference.
[00:38:32] But like, just at a glance, there's campaigns where I can post and share. There are places and apps I can download to make calls. There, um, you know, is a, uh, food pantry in my community where I can donate and go and share. I can work at the clothes closet and sort clothes for, that'll be purchased for, and, and all the proceeds go to their programming, all of that, those things, right?
[00:38:54] So take a survey, if you will. First of all, I think really trust yourself. What is it that moves you, right? With all of the overwhelm, with all of the, the, the, uh, scattershot that's been sent into our, our lives. What is the thing that pricks your heart? What is that thing? Because maybe the Elon Musk social security thing isn't like, you're like, eh, that sounds really scary and weird, but like, I don't get excited about that.
[00:39:19] But if it's the thought of immigrant families or ICE coming to a school and ripping a child away from a teacher, then guess what? That's what you focus on. I think those things are, are given to us from higher power. I think that is. It's such an important intuition to follow. And then, so start there.
[00:39:36] Lisa: And I want you to notice, if you're listening, what are you the most angry about?
[00:39:41] Right. That's going to give you a good clue as to what you care about because the flip side of anger is strength. But my second charge to you is to stop being angry and to start doing something and committing to not giving up or losing hope or just laying down and being complacent. So we're going to not waste time on being angry.
[00:40:01] We're going to notice what our anger is telling us. That's the thing we care about. We're going to channel it for strength, and then we're going to move it towards action within our community.
[00:40:10] Laura: I'll say, too, you know, obviously Election Day didn't go the way that I wished it had, but I had a lot of anxiety around Election Day until I went and worked the polls.
[00:40:19] When I worked the polls and I worked the Democratic committee table, and again, not because the Democrats are going to save us, but because that's how I was voting this last election. It was so amazing to meet this person of color, this gay woman, this young child, or this, you know, grandson who's with them, this teenage girl who's really motivated.
[00:40:37] That table alone gave me community for that day that helped to bolster my spirit for that day. And I think that, like, being able to make connections with people in physical places that care about what you care about is something that our digital world can't give us in the same way. And I think we should lean into that, too.
[00:40:56] Lisa: It took you out of your anxiety, out of your self, your, your self centered, you're just seeing yourself, which that's what happens to all of us, is normal, took it out of that and showed you, hey, look at this broad perspective.
[00:41:08] Laura: Yeah, it moved me from fear to action, too. Um, and I think that's really, really important.
[00:41:14] Lisa: Let's move from fear to action. Let's move from fear to action. That goes on the shirt, right, with the, I came, I came here for Mel and I left with Laura.
[00:41:27] So, how do you talk about this, and again, I know you mentioned that working with children in therapy is not your focus right now, but you're also a mom. I am. Right? And I don't know about you, but like, this past week, I helped my child study for the three branches of government test. That was hard. What the executive branch can and can't do, legislative branch can and can't do, like, anyway, that's a little anecdote,
[00:41:50] Kori: but I actually think that's a strategy, Laura, that is a full strategy.
[00:41:55] Educating our children on how things Are and should be, right? History, past, present, intentions, like giving full pictures. That education is a very important strategy because then it helps them to be independent thinkers, as Lisa was saying before. And they can ask questions, and they are curious, and when they're noticing things that don't align with what they've been taught, then they want to say something or push back.
[00:42:25] That is a very powerful strategy. Knowledge is power.
[00:42:29] Laura: Okay. I'm going to call the kid back. We're going to talk a little more in depth. I kind of said, I was like, in theory, this is what it's supposed to be, but it's not like that right now, my love.
[00:42:36] Lisa: I think, I think the basics, the, you know, we, we want to be the opposite of a high control environment, which is that we allow for free thinking.
[00:42:42] So one of the things that I always tell my kids is, Hey, this is what I think, and this is why, but you get to make your own choice. I want to, I make sure I practice all the time. You get to make your own choice in here. Look at the information. I push them towards critical thinking. And, um, also know that in the developing brain, they're, they don't have, they have a lot of years of, of, you know, building here.
[00:43:05] So I'm not, I'm not anxious about that per se. And I also think that our actions speak a lot louder than our words anyway. But there are kids that are, um, really anxious about this. And my kids go to a private Christian school. And this has been a challenge for us because there's a lot of people that think differently than we do in that environment.
[00:43:26] And so my kids have specifically been experiencing, by their report, feeling like they're the minority of understanding world events. And so we have worked with them on what I call show your work. So, have an opinion and be able to explain why. And allow, you can allow for your friends to have different opinions.
[00:43:48] But, you know, when I hear my nine year old come home and say to me when she gets in the car and I say, How was school? And she says, On the, at recess today, someone said to me, Why does Kamala Harris kill babies? It's tough. It's a really tough situation. It's a true story. So, I think that our children watch what we do, and they watch what we say.
[00:44:10] And our children hear when we have news on in the background. And, you know, I am committed to free thought, which means there are many ways to have opinions and many angles that people have the freedom to believe in. I don't have to agree with you. I had to develop mentally, in a developmentally appropriate way, explain that that's not what's happening.
[00:44:33] That is not the truth and that there is an issue called abortion and it's about whether people have the right to make a choice or not for themselves. And I don't think she totally understood but I just leveled with her about it in a way that I'm attempting. To provide context for her and if you look at the outcome of our election, 50 percent of people hold beliefs that are different than 50 percent of other people's beliefs, no matter how you slice it, right?
[00:45:02] And so, again, we don't have to be scared of that and people that have different beliefs are not bad people. But I do think that it is our responsibility within our own homes to help our kids to understand what they might be hearing around them, how they could talk to their friends about it. What's developmentally appropriate?
[00:45:21] What's a, what do we not have to talk about with our children? And how to be good stewards of information. So, with our older kids, we talk a lot about sources. Now I do have to say that my Genius husband, who is a constitutional nerd. That's a real help, right? So he handles a lot of the hard information.
[00:45:46] I'm more, I'm going to lean towards the feelings doctor part, you know? You
[00:45:51] Laura: two are very well matched. Is there a Dan Mazzio hotline the rest of us parents can access if we need that? Dang.
[00:45:57] Laura: Yeah, it's like different kinds of handy, right? Yes. Your Daniel's got the house figured out. He's going to put this room in, change that around.
[00:46:07] You want a cabinet there? No problem. That's amazing. I'm jealous. But it's
[00:46:11] Kori: a different kind of handy, right? Like the, the handy that you have is like, he's a constitution nerd. So he is like, I'm pulling out all these. I have this first edition and this is what the words actually said.
[00:46:24] Lisa: No, no. I just thought they were questioning Google's.
[00:46:27] He gives me the answer right away. I just sound like he's like my, my personal Google search, my search bot.
[00:46:32] Laura: You know what? Thank God. When you pay, if you have to pay those student loan payments, you go, this was worth it this month. I got my Google, my Google answer. I got it. Yep.
[00:46:40] Lisa: Um, well, anyway, back, back to the kid question.
[00:46:43] I mean, I, I would love to hear what you guys think just, you know, from being, you know, moms too. But I, I would say we're threading the needle between tell them the truth, give them the space to think on their own. And be developmentally appropriate with it.
[00:46:59] Laura: Kori, you want to hit that first? No. Yours are little.
[00:47:01] I mean,
[00:47:02] Kori: my, yeah, my kids are, my son just turned five, my oldest one. And my little one's three. So, um, we are also at a, we're at a colloquial school or an Episcopal school. But it is predominantly Black. And it is, so, diversity, equity, and inclusion are things that are highly prioritized. And, um, like that kind of stuff is not quite in their level of conversation yet, right?
[00:47:33] Like they're more talking about Sonic Three and who's gonna be in Sonic Four and the relationship between, um, Sonic and Silver Sonic and, um, you know, like, oh, being young and innocent. Yeah. That dynamic and, you know, talking about. Next birthday, I want a Red Hulk to go with my Captain America toy. Like, that's a little bit more where we are.
[00:48:02] Imagining creating food, different styles of food, going to auntie and uncle's house, because that's where all the pizza is. That's the fake pizza's over there. That's where you're living right now. Yeah, that's more where I'm living in terms of my conversations with With them.
[00:48:21] Lisa: I also think it's to your point when you have kids that are that young.
[00:48:24] It's okay to not talk about it
[00:48:26] Laura: Yeah, yes, I agree. Right
[00:48:28] Lisa: Preserve their childhood like they'll be a vote They'll be a voting age eventually and we'll talk about the issues then when they get there Yes, you don't have to talk with your kids to kids about this if they're little.
[00:48:38] Laura: Yes. Yes I will say my husband is a very much a news junkie It's never on our TV, but he's always reading it on the on his phone And you'll hear him just drop an F bomb, like, reading a news story, and the kids are like, What's wrong, Dad?
[00:48:50] What's wrong, Dad? Dad, are you okay? What's wrong? And I'm like, you're gonna have to hold that F bomb inside a little longer, because it does, it unnerves them, especially because we kind of live here, as a couple, where there's not a, there's not a lot of fighting, there's not a lot of conflict, so when you hear Dad curse, you're real curious.
[00:49:09] What just happened? So that is something we need to work on, in terms of how the level of their baseline, to your point, about how How this feels, this pressure cooker feels to them, as kids of two parents who care.
[00:49:20] Lisa: But,
[00:49:21] Laura: um,
[00:49:22] Lisa: I was That's what we need to say. Kids of two parents that care. Yes. Kids of two
[00:49:26] Laura: parents that care.
[00:49:27] Maybe I should give them a t shirt, too. Yeah. They are good kids, and they do care, too. They're starting to care on their own. Which is encouraging. Um, the other piece of this, too, is developmentally, in terms of their brains, they're very black and white thinkers. They're very, uh, you know, a dichotomy, a yes no, good bad, good evil, and so That bad guy?
[00:49:46] Yes. Um Those are the conversations we're having. Yes, you are. About Marvel characters, right?
[00:49:53] Kori: But about the gray, that everyone isn't necessarily a bad person. And I point out things like, you know, that was a bad behavior, and did you see how the other people responded to that? And then they began to feel that more, and then they decided that that's who they wanted to be because that's what people were expecting.
[00:50:13] Like we started, we watched Wicked. And that was kind of illuminating for my older son, right? This idea is like, but mommy, she wasn't bad or mean. And I was like, yes, that's how it happens. And, and he asked questions about monsters. And I said, um, monsters, how you imagine them don't exist. But there are people who do monstrous things.
[00:50:37] Laura: Or we treat other people as monsters because they're other.
[00:50:41] Kori: Because they're other. But it's like, the monsters that, like how the president in, uh, Harry, what is his name? What is his name?
[00:50:50] Laura: What, what movie? What, give me a reference. In
[00:50:51] Kori: Captain America Coming Up. Oh, you know I got nothing on this. It was, um, it's Harrison Ford.
[00:50:56] is the president in Captain America coming, the one that's going to come out. And he ends up becoming the Red Hulk. It's like, that's not how the monster actually shows up in these people. Like, that is an imaginative representation of a person demonstrating monster like behavior, him turning into the Red Hulk.
[00:51:19] But in real life, Those same kind of people demonstrate those behaviors without putting, without becoming the red hulk, that like visual version of the monster. They just look like the guy in the suit.
[00:51:32] Laura: Or they're, yeah, I was going to make a joke about, you know, Mango Mussolini. They look like this. No, we won't, I don't want to dehumanize him either.
[00:51:39] Um, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, but that's the challenge is like, oh, this kid says, go Trump or like laughed about Kamala losing on the playground. And so like he's bad and it's, or his family is bad or whatever the it is. And so we live in an area, you know, Lisa, you're saying your kids go to school in a pretty conservative spot, right?
[00:52:00] Kori yours on the other end of the spectrum, maybe not so much. I'm the in between. You know, we live in a rural area that is moving. It's magenta. It's not red anymore. It's getting magenta, um, and that's exciting, um, but we are neighbors with these folks and we, you know, go to kid activities and cheer next to each other on the sidelines at soccer.
[00:52:21] And so I won't let my kids vilify. And dehumanize, um, anyone who thinks differently, but we do have a lot of conversations about the abortion one has come up in our house too, not because they heard anything so scary. That's terrifying. But like, let's talk about what would happen if, and would you want, you know, how would you feel if someone told you you had to do something with your body that would change your life forever?
[00:52:46] You know, those kind of things.
[00:52:47] Kori: And also talking to them about like how, just like how we talk, other families are talking in their homes too. Yes. And their beliefs and experiences aren't quite the same as ours. And so the way, the things that they're talking about may not be exactly how we're talking about these same things.
[00:53:05] And so that doesn't make them bad people. You know, that just So we have to acknowledge that this is, this is our home and, and the conversations that we have are based on mommy's experiences and papa's experiences and what we think is right because we love you. If someone's having a different conversation, that doesn't mean that their parents don't love them.
[00:53:27] That doesn't mean that they're bad people. That, you know, that means that they just have a different way of thinking. The best way to learn more about that is to ask questions and stay curious.
[00:53:37] Laura: And while Um, it's not uncommon for kids to think like their parents at these ages. I also, I love what you said, Lisa, about prioritizing freedom of thought.
[00:53:48] Like the, you're, I tell my kids that all the time, like things like that all the time. Hudson and I had a really cool conversation about religion the other day that I did not see coming. And, you know, he said one thing and I kind of prompted and said, well, could it be this? I said, I was like, if you're ever interested in going to a service, finding out, reading a book, comparative religions, having these conversations, I am always open to that.
[00:54:09] You know, even though I may have a particular stance or take. And I don't know that that same freedom of thought is happening in, with some of these ideas that are based, that are based on control and other, yep, where we prioritize fear and othering and all of that. Yeah. So Kori, like, I think I loved your framing for like, some families are having conversations about this.
[00:54:31] They're also maybe not having conversations as much as a come to Jesus or you live in fear in this house. So, um, I have, my hope is that by having that openness and that sense of you can explore and get curious. That my kids will hopefully not stray too far from this thinking.
[00:54:47] Lisa: Do you think that the values of parenting in our generation of parenting, there is a real encouraging shift towards openness and tolerance of independent thinking?
[00:54:58] And I'm just so curious, you know, God willing we're going to live to see what the, the cultural landscape shifts to be when we see people from older generations who have You're traditionally less of that flexible thinking. And when we have kids, how many kids are there between us? Uh,
[00:55:18] Laura: two, four, six, and nine.
[00:55:21] Lisa: Our collective nine kids go into the world with the ability to think critically. I hope that that is an exponential, you know, movement of our parenting generation. And that makes me feel a lot of hope, to be real honest. Can I be really
[00:55:35] Kori: honest? Our track record does not indicate that that's what's going to happen, unfortunately.
[00:55:42] It's like, so, you know, the Latchkey kids of Generation X, like, we're elder millennials, so we were kind of on the tail of that, right? They were also connecting and vibing across identities through music, through arts, through all of these different things. There was all kinds of interracial booms and growths and like storytelling and all that in this era.
[00:56:13] And then those people became the people in the positions of power and they're demonstrating the same white supreme behaviors and mentalities that they were pushing up against in their youth. In their youth. And so like I am hopeful in the way, like, yes, because we have, we are in these spaces of, where we're trying to encourage and support free thought for 100%, and I hope that it manifests into something that extends outside of our reach and purview, and that there, we, as, as the people we are now, have made enough impact to.
[00:56:54] In the systems that are in place, that they don't get re acculturated once they're in whatever settings into that mindset of supremacy, right? Because we see things like, as kids are young, we see them interacting in more diverse groups, participating in settings that have, they have, you know, more diversity in their friend groups, in their game, in their team groups, in their robotics groups, whatever they are.
[00:57:19] Where they may
[00:57:19] Laura: not notice difference either. Where they embrace it.
[00:57:22] Kori: And as they get older, their groups racially become more homogeneous. And that homogeneity is part of what limits that free thought. Because then you begin to interact more and more around people who are in bubbles that are close to you.
[00:57:40] So you can't see the bubble. You can't name the bubble because the people who have to infiltrate the bubble aren't there. To be like, hey, yeah, you know you're really protected as a white woman in this society because we're not there, you know, and that's the part that, that to me is the thing that really needs to take the shift.
[00:58:01] It's, we have to be willing to press to create the room for them to be themselves when they are at our age. And the parents of, uh, our parents, they pressed in some ways, right? They were out there marching, they were boycotting, they were, um, doing sit ins and all of that kind of stuff. They were getting assassinated.
[00:58:27] Literally, children, all of that, and their white counterparts found ways, even those who may have had a tender heart and affinity to support, it's like the majority of people are attracted to power. The status quo is easy. The status quo is good. The status quo is hard to. push back against. So I, I like, I appreciate the hope.
[00:58:54] And then, and then in other ways, I'm just kind of like a realist, because I've seen these patterns. We get these pushes, and then we see it just turn back into the same kind of environment. And on one hand, I, when I'm watching what's happening, I'm thinking, wow, he, they are doing exactly what they said that they were going to do.
[00:59:20] And part of my resistance is like, why don't we allow them to tear it all the fuck down so we can build what it is that we actually need and want, right? Like we, we, I am not in the mindset that I want to spend a lot of energy fighting for this system that never fought for me, right? It's like, I haven't felt safe in the United States in a decade.
[00:59:47] And so now other people are beginning to feel the same feelings that I've been feeling for most of my adult life. Yeah. You know? And I think
[00:59:57] Lisa: it's really important that as white people we do acknowledge that. That, that, it's, it's uncomfortable to say that, but I think we, we model that even starting here.
[01:00:06] That I have so much privilege, you know, as a white woman with plenty of resources, with education. I, I don't, I'm not used to feeling afraid. But I do now. And Kori. It's sad that you've had to feel like that for a long time, and anyone I care about, I mean, truly, and I, it's not thoughts and prayers, I don't mean that, it's not thoughts and prayers.
[01:00:29] Kori: Which is another thing, again, it's like the, the tear down that mentality, right? Like, we don't need thoughts and prayers, we need action, we need movement. Yes. We need, um, collaboration, we need accomplices, it's like, we need people who are willing to put themselves on the line as much as we have put ourselves on the line, that's what we need, right?
[01:00:49] It's like This, I hope, is a wake up call that is strong enough.
[01:00:55] Lisa: I read somewhere that you think that's what, that's the hope in here.
[01:00:57] Kori: Mm
[01:00:57] Lisa: hmm. Yes. That let's, let's be so outraged that it is actually. Let's get our collective black trash bags out here and put away the garbage, right? Of what we don't want anymore.
[01:01:09] Laura: That's right. Well, and so it's that, it's that tension of, we're raising kids differently, we're trying to be intentional, and create the humans, and, and, and encourage and foster the scenario and the humans that we want them to be. And, these systems are really powerful, and status quo is really powerful, and so And broken.
[01:01:26] Yeah, and broken. And so maybe this moment radicalizes in a really positive direction. I mean, that's the hope, right? That the people wake up, they turn, they open their eyes, they turn on past patterns of belief, they realize in new ways what being targeted or marginalized or being scared feels like.
[01:01:45] Lisa: We can't freeze.
[01:01:47] No, we can't freeze. We started that conversation, we started the conversation by saying, don't believe the lies, don't give up. If we want to do, Laura, what you just stated beautifully, if we want that to happen, we can't get hopeless. We can't get complacent.
[01:01:59] Kori: And we have to remember it's all connected, right?
[01:02:02] It's like the, the power that is held in this country is shared across lots of other places and is wielded all over the world, right? If we were so humane, then why do we have military outposts all over the world, right? Why is our, our, why do we have weapons places located all over the world? Why are we willing to supply arms?
[01:02:32] for genocidal behavior in Congo and other places. Why? Because the power. This place here, this, these United States, we don't have that many resources. We, we rely. on other places to be able to do our, our daily living, right? The eating that we do, the use of our cell phone, electric cars, um, some of the gas, the oil and gasoline, like we rely on other places to do that.
[01:03:06] And some of those places. We rely on them through extortion and oppression, and some of those places we rely on through their extortion and oppression of other places, but like in partnership, right? And so this notion of tariffs and deportation and, um, silencing information. is going to be catastrophic to everybody's everyday experience.
[01:03:39] Because we rely on immigrants to provide us with the food that we eat on our table. Like 90 percent of our produce. We rely on immigrants to pick that food. Right? We rely on The Middle East for oil and things. That's where our, our gas is coming from. We rely on the Middle East, on Africa for minerals and for, uh, precious metals that we use in our technology.
[01:04:09] We rely on China for technology. We rely on, like, we rely on everybody for things. So the, what is it? Um, fun ant. What was it? F A F. F A F O. F A F O. Fuck around,
[01:04:25] Laura: find out. What did, what did Bernie call it? My husband listened to the podcast and came up with an acronym that, or that worked for us. I'll find it.
[01:04:33] Go ahead. So,
[01:04:33] Kori: so this idea around not, not freezing, it also is reliant on us mobilizing across oppression generally. Right, not my individual experience of this fear right now in this moment, this oppressive feeling in this moment, but like the resistance to that being a perpetual thing that anybody experiences because we're seeing these levels of pushback these shifts in like tyrannical rule in more than one place and we're seeing pushback in all of these places.
[01:05:10] And so if we can talk about how what's happening in the United States impacts not only the United States but people in other parts of the world. If we talk about what's happening in Ukraine impacts not only people in Ukraine but people in other parts of the world. If we talk about sending people back to, um, Colombia or Mexico or wherever impacts those people.
[01:05:37] But not only those people, it impacts what's happening here. It's like we have even more collective power if we're thinking about the reach that we actually have in terms of fighting against systems of oppression. We have immense collective power and we have even more places to plug in. Because the thing that's making us mad may not even be something that's making us mad here in this country.
[01:06:07] Laura: Fun auntie for opposition. Fun auntie for opposition. So we're gonna embrace that.
[01:06:12] Kori: F A F O. Yes. They used to be like,
[01:06:14] Laura: fuck around and find out,
[01:06:15] Kori: right? Fun aunties. Fun aunties. Fighting oppression. I like fighting oppression, too. Fighting oppression. Fun aunties fighting oppression. Bernie got us there. Bernie's got us 80 percent of the way there.
[01:06:25] We just had a See? Put a bow on that thing.
[01:06:28] Laura: This has been lovely, and I love that we are focusing on what we can do, and we are going to make a commitment, all of us, not to get small, and not to believe him. Yes. Because our power is in moving forward, moving towards action, and, um, Together. Together. Together.
[01:06:45] Yeah. And, uh, together. Yeah. Together. That's the big part.
[01:06:48] Lisa: Whether it's talking to your kids in the back of your car on pickup line, or engaging in a community, or talking about global interests, there's so many options here.
[01:06:56] Kori: So many options here. There's so many ways. It's not hopeless. You are the perpetual caller, letter writer.
[01:07:03] You're the animal wrangler. Like, there are so many ways that we can focus.
[01:07:08] Lisa: To be an auntie that fights oppression. Yes. That
[01:07:10] Kori: fights oppression. What
[01:07:11] Laura: is speaking to your heart? Who are other people who are already doing it? Find your people. Take your slice of the pie and work on that. You know, don't
[01:07:19] Lisa: waste your time being angry.
[01:07:21] Laura: Mm hmm channel it, baby
[01:07:23] Lisa: One last
[01:07:23] Kori: thing share your shock and family time white folks, okay? Don’t bring us shit over here? You're like, I know I know like my sister and I had a two hour conversation Just talking about the shock that we experienced with of people shock shock about shock. Yeah shock about shock.
[01:07:41] It's like Have y'all not been paying attention? Have you not been here? So what I'm saying is, share that shock in family time. You guys work on that because we've been, we've been saying it. And living it.
[01:07:55] Laura: And living it. And feeling it and carrying it. For a long time. Long time. Okay.
[01:08:00] Kori: Keep your shock over there and show up with an action plan or something, whatever your steps are.
[01:08:06] Show up with your gloves on.
[01:08:08] Laura: Get the shovel. Whatever you're gonna do. It's like, I can't
[01:08:09] Kori: support your, your moment of despair. Okay? I just, I don't have the bandwidth for that. That's
[01:08:14] Laura: emotional labor you don't
[01:08:15] Kori: need to give. I just don't need. You don't. Yeah. Yes. So, keep it in family time.
[01:08:24] Laura: That white community, y'all do that every day.
[01:08:27] Kori: That's family
[01:08:28] Laura: time. I love it. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us today. Yes, Lisa, this was fun. These
[01:08:35] Lisa: are a delight. Oh, thanks. We love to come back and keep talking about all things related to feelings, so.
[01:08:42] Laura: We'll have plenty of opportunities, let me tell ya. The feelings are big, the feelings are plentiful, I'm talking about them in my spaces, and um, I love the idea of moving to something that's, uh, that's practical, right?
[01:08:53] The what can we do? The so what now? So. Yeah! Thank you. Do you, where can people find you? Is there any, any way that people can find you and connect with you if they're in Virginia and want to access services? Oh, sure.
[01:09:04] Lisa: Yeah, my practice is named Watermark Psychological Services. You can hit the old internet and find me there.
[01:09:09] We'll put it in the show notes.
[01:09:10] Laura: Ye olde internet. Well, yep, we will, we'll hook it up. We don't even need a Dan Constitutional Scholar. I'll put that in the show notes for sure.
[01:09:16] Kori: Boom.
[01:09:17] Laura: Boom. Love you, Dan. You'll be proud. Love you, Dan. Love you, Daniel. Love you all. Um, Kori, thanks as always. It's been fun. Um, thanks everybody for listening.
[01:09:26] to Pushing Past Polite, where we talk about what matter and make the world what matters. Close this out. Thanks,
[01:09:34] Kori: everybody. everybody. Thank you, Lisa, for joining us. It was such a delight having you today. It was fun, and we got to talk about some really important issues. Thank you all for listening to Pushing Past Polite, where we talk about what matters and make the world more just.
[01:09:48] I'm Kori. I'm Laura.
[01:09:50]Laura: I'm Dr. Mazzio. Don't get small, take action.
Kori: Thanks for listening to Pushing Past Polite. We encourage you to go deeper in your trusted spaces and find new space for good conversation.
Laura: You'll find episodes, transcripts, and lots of other goodies at our website, pushingpastpolitepodcast.com. You can also connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Pushing Past Polite.
Kori: Pushing Past Polite is an independent podcast with Kori and Laura from Just Educators.
Laura: Our cover art was designed by Rachel Welsh De Iga of De Iga Design, and our audio is produced by Keith at Headset Media. Until next time, don't get stuck talking about the weather. Push past polite.
Kori: See you next time.
Little Dude: Bye bye.
Laura: Jay, you did perfect!
